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[SW] Sweeping Slash

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lefze
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[SW] Sweeping Slash

Post#1 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:39 pm

The standpoint of the team seems to be that Sweeping Slash brings value to ASW as it deals "high AoE damage". Based on this, Sweeping Slash needs some work. Currently it deals okay damage, but a cooldown of 10 seconds and a tooltip range of 25ft which in reality is about 18-19ft makes it an absolute no to spec for. In fact, I would rather pick up Barrage any day, as assault stance offers absolutely no AoE apart from Sweeping Slash, while barrage gives you brief moments of okayish bombing with Focused Mind+LA+Barrage for killing blows. The only use Sweeping Slash has as it is, is to use as filler whenever slightly out of range for Grim Slash, but the range being so low and tracking being as bad as it is makes the skill land 1 out of 10 times even when almost standing in peoples faces.

So while the damage can be said to be okay, the overall dps and usability of the skill is non-existent. I proposed to remake the skill into something fitting of a melee singletarget spec, but as that was declined partially on the basis of the skill having good AoE damage, I will instead offer solutions to make the skill usable for actual AoE damage, even if the spec has no use for it, and it makes no sense for the ability to be AoE without a major rework of the whole kit.

Solutions

Sweeping Slash

Solution 1
Reduce cooldown to 5 seconds and increase range to 30/35ft. Might help it actually land, and also makes it synergize with WW. In itself this isn't going to make much of an impact, but the skill is at the very least gonna function as opposed to the current form.

Part below not for discussion unless a balance mod okays it!
Additional solutions proposed as Wrist Slash is no longer gonna be a guaranteed 100% uptime. I still do feel like these are dangerous additions for an AoE skill, but as it won't change to a singletarget one, the proposals are acceptable in my opinion.

Solution 2
Apply Whispering Wind for 5 seconds on-hit. Keep the skill as is in all other aspects.

Destruction has this buff present on two classes already, one of which can pop it without being in range of anything. Duration is lowered to 5 seconds to compensate for the short cooldown on the skill. SH on the other hand has Bad Gas, but as this debuff is already present in the form of Shatter Limbs, going for WW is a better idea.

Solution 3
Applies a 10 second armor debuff. Keep the skill as is in all other aspects.

AoE armor debuffs are mostly lacking on both sides, the only AoE armor debuff currently in the game is on the Zealots "Sweeping Disgorgement" tactic. It makes Demon Spittle into a 40ft, 9 second duration/5 second cooldown AoE DoT/Armor debuff/Corp debuff, which stacks with any other armor debuff on the target. Taking into account the stacking, range, and uptime on the tactic, I find it reasonable for Sweeping Slash to have an armour debuff that is at least in the 900-1k range. Should also be mentioned that Order already has access to one less regular armor debuff than destro, when not counting Sweeping Disgorgement. These armor debuff also either have significantly longer duration than cooldown, for example 5s CD 20s duration, or have equal CD and duration, but are undefendable. The proposed armor debuff would be the most unreliable one as it has matching CD and duration, and is defendable. As such it might even make sense for it to be uncleansable, at the very least by DoK.



Edit: Removed irrelevant parts, focus only SS.
Edit 2: Added solution 2 and 3 as a response to the only value the class brings being gutted outside of 6v6, and that the skill in reality would still be useless with the slight buffs already proposed.
Edit 3: The skill seemingly has an incorrect strength mod of .3 instead of .2. Does not affect actual use though.
Last edited by lefze on Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:44 am, edited 7 times in total.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash and sinister assault

Post#2 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:14 pm

AoE ini debuff via AoE GS + WS that stacks with SM statsteal in WB environments? You've seen the outcry from 6man community - even though it can be countered - so imagine the outcry from a largely casual community that don't min-max. Double aoe ini debuff effects would be amplified in any environments greater than 6v6. If I have understood this, please let me know, but this is what it seems like to me, i.e. that you'd be for an AoE ini debuff that can stack with ability-based ini debuffs.

Assault SW should be treated as a primarily single-target DPS spec, imo, and if we decide to move it to an AoE DPS/utility spec (as it would undoubtedly become with said proposals), it's ST utility/damage would need to take a hit: you can't have access to everything via one spec (utility, survivability, ST and AOE dps), otherwise why bother going for the other specs? Something would have to give.


I am, however, a fan of giving Sweeping Slash a 5 second CD due to its placement in mastery tree, and being the only AoE a mSW has access to. However, you must bear in mind that it benefits from 50% critical damage via tactic... With that being said, then, I will open this proposal for the Sweeping Slash part only.

If OP finds this unsatisfactory, I'll close it.

Open for discussion. Will be locked in TWO WEEKS from now (20th June).
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dansari
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash and sinister assault [Close Date 20th June]

Post#3 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:35 pm

I don't necessarily think Sweeping Slash needs a buff. I spec for it and sure, it goes unused in most situations. One thing to keep in mind is that Merc Soldier grants a 50% crit damage increase on Sweeping Slash, so dropping it to 5s + 30ft range could be reaching. I agree that the ability is lackluster *specifically because of the 10s cd*, just want to be careful about making it too strong. I don't necessarily think ASW needs to be able to deal tons of aoe damage, since it's single target damage is so high. Something that could be useful is simply giving those variables to Sinister Assault. So, remove the augmentation of Brutal Assault and grant Sweeping Slash a 35ft cone (+10ft) and 5s cooldown (from 10s) with Sinister Assault slotted. That would be my preferred approach (if it changes at all, and as a player I'm not convinced it does), so then you have to give something up: do you give up IA for the +str/ws (probably not), Wrist Slash for its ini/ws steal (probably not), or No Respite for its 15% damage increase (likely culprit if you wanted to try to develop an aoe path for ASW).

I'd like to check on the dps it's dealing.
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash and sinister assault [Close Date 20th June]

Post#4 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:45 pm

I don't agree these changes are needed for the ASW. Sinister assault is what gives BA its real st burst. Reworking it to add unnessecary range on sweeping slash breaks the ST burst. Rather rework SS to something for utility or leave it as it is.
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash and sinister assault [Close Date 20th June]

Post#5 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:49 pm

Maybe you could salvage the sinister assault portion of your proposal by tieing it to draw blood instead?
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daniilpb
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash and sinister assault [Close Date 20th June]

Post#6 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:57 pm

SS is a garbage skill, even with lower CD. I'd better rework it into something related to utility, not just possible aoe spam. Class really needs some reliable utility than just cheap initiative debuff (currently we have a wheelchair class with a rocket launcher - take it away and you know).
The idea of Assault SW in WB is bad itself. Better look at Skirmish if you want to be useful in aoe environment especially since it was nerfed to the ground and no WB want to see SW. SS spam won't give it a spot imo.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash and sinister assault [Close Date 20th June]

Post#7 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:10 pm

Only reason I am a fan of reducing the CD of SS to 5 seconds is because it is the only AoE Assault offers, and because of its placement. Having said that, if current damage is too high when SS is used in conjunction with 50% crit damage tactic, not sure if reducing CD is needed.

Range is a separate entity. Why is its current range useless? How many targets can you currently hit with it?
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nat3s
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#8 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:24 pm

Spoiler:
I don't think buffing ASW AoE is going to achieve parity with SH. I think this change is only going to widen the gap.
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Last edited by nat3s on Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lefze
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash and sinister assault [Close Date 20th June]

Post#9 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:24 pm

daniilpb wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:57 pm
SS is a garbage skill, even with lower CD. I'd better rework it into something related to utility, not just possible aoe spam. Class really needs some reliable utility than just cheap initiative debuff (currently we have a wheelchair class with a rocket launcher - take it away and you know).
The idea of Assault SW in WB is bad itself. Better look at Skirmish if you want to be useful in aoe environment especially since it was nerfed to the ground and no WB want to see SW. SS spam won't give it a spot imo.
I tried, got declined. Hence this proposal, even though the spec is garbage for AoE, there is no reason for Sweeping Slash to not function even for singletarget purposes.


peterthepan3 wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:10 pm
Only reason I am a fan of reducing the CD of SS to 5 seconds is because it is the only AoE Assault offers, and because of its placement. Having said that, if current damage is too high when SS is used in conjunction with 50% crit damage tactic, not sure if reducing CD is needed.

Range is a separate entity. Why is its current range useless? How many targets can you currently hit with it?
On average, you hit about zero people with the skill. Especially when people are moving sligthly, it just fails to land on anyone not standing on top of you. And while it's a decently hard hitting skill, increasing the range of the skill alone isn't gonna change the way it plays at the moment, which is sitting unspecced because it's simply not bringing anything of value. Decreasing the CD in addition to increasing the range on the other hand, will allow for some limited AoE pressure in situations where it is needed, but it's still not gonna make the spec even remotely viable for anything bomb related.
Last edited by lefze on Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lefze
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Re: [SW] Sweeping Slash [Close Date 20th June]

Post#10 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:29 pm

Spoiler:
nat3s wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:24 pm
I don't think buffing ASW AoE is going to achieve parity with SH. I think this change is only going to widen the gap.
SH has their own remake coming with client control. Also, SH is already far superior to SW for a warband, Bad Gas is a thing afterall.
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