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[BO] Da Toughest

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Bignusty
Posts: 325

[BO] Da Toughest

Post#1 » Sat May 12, 2018 8:07 pm

Hello everyone !!

I'm here to propose a better way for this cry "Da Toughest" almost never used at high level i'm a rr60 BO and never used this cry after t1 sc or Orvr, almost all Black Orc using Da greenest or Da biggest !! Why ? Because it's just working on the Black Orc only and not for your party.If you use it you will lose so much resistance or so much buff for your party.I have never saw a BO Orvr or Small scale runing whit this cry. Plus the wound buff is really to small to catch some situation if you are under attack agaisnt high damage dealer the wound buff will be done in 2-3 attack and always waiting 10 sec wound buff for wait the 25% chance to be buffed again isn't helpfull.

My proposition :

1 - Upgrade the wound buff from the Warcry, and make this cry a party buff like 2 others War Cry but let the 10 sec cd before to be buffed again

2 - Upgrade the wound Buff from war cry, and make this cry a party buff like 2 others War Cry and delete the 10 sec cd before a new wound buff


SM blade enchant can make an absorb bubble its really more helpfull and more used than our war cry for wound buff, i have already done a test whit another SM bubble vs Da toughest and there is no similitude SM taking almost no damage du to the absorb but as a Black Orc the wound buff isnt enough to keep us alive or to give us lot of survavility agaisnt him du to the small heal buff. Similar thing can be added for the SM to for a party bubble whit enchantement blade but whit a balanced amount of absorb dmg as our wound buff.

Sorry for my english speacking or english writing but thanks to read my porposal.

Later boyz !

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dansari
Posts: 2496

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest cry

Post#2 » Sat May 19, 2018 11:26 am

Moving to discussions. Closed June 2. There's no way the wounds buff would be allowed to refresh, so #2 is out. You can discuss #1 though.
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daniilpb
Posts: 591

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest cry

Post#3 » Sat May 19, 2018 11:58 am

First of all, you should ask yourself would you really trade Da Biggest stat steal for buff only Da Toughest.
I can see use of it only in occasional switches when your group are having a hard time or under high pressure.
For full-time War Bellow it still would be not that good in my opinion. At least for small-scale BO. (maybe if duration would be a bit longer like 20ish seconds, for example, so BO would have to switch from DB to DT to get that buff and then back to DB until rebuff is needed - sounds like an interesting gameplay decision)
However, warband BO may find it attractive but it should be clarified by such players who actually play BO in organized warbands or lead them.
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DokB
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Posts: 494

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest cry

Post#4 » Sat May 19, 2018 12:31 pm

You would need to substantially "upgrade" the wounds buff value to make it worth swapping to when under pressure, or at the very least define what you mean by upgrade.
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Nefarian78
Posts: 328

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest cry

Post#5 » Sat May 19, 2018 12:35 pm

It still wouldn't be used, even if it was a party buff.

Da Biggest would still be the superior bellow in every way. Why would i want a 32 (or a little more, if it gets an "upgrade") Wounds buff+heal every 10s, that does not refresh while active, when i can reduce the enemy stats (reducing both their damage and defensive capabilities) and give them to my team? It could work in soaking the damage from the first random AoE spell thrown your way i guess.

Stat stealing is simply much, much more valuable than a 32 wounds buff, even if it's for all the group.

Beside that, Da Toughest has always been the solo-oriented bellow and, in my opinion, it should stay like that. Class and skill identity should be considered too when making a proposal =/

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Acidic
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Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest cry

Post#6 » Sat May 19, 2018 2:08 pm

The heal party buff would be unlikely to be used as it is simply too weak.
The parry buff option could be interesting and give some much needed survival tools to 2H builds.

Currently 2H is fun but the life expectancy is not great.

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Bignusty
Posts: 325

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest cry

Post#7 » Sat May 19, 2018 6:52 pm

Nefarian78 wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 12:35 pm
It still wouldn't be used, even if it was a party buff.

Da Biggest would still be the superior bellow in every way. Why would i want a 32 (or a little more, if it gets an "upgrade") Wounds buff+heal every 10s, that does not refresh while active, when i can reduce the enemy stats (reducing both their damage and defensive capabilities) and give them to my team? It could work in soaking the damage from the first random AoE spell thrown your way i guess.

Stat stealing is simply much, much more valuable than a 32 wounds buff, even if it's for all the group.

Beside that, Da Toughest has always been the solo-oriented bellow and, in my opinion, it should stay like that. Class and skill identity should be considered too when making a proposal =/
Then if any proposal is make then this cry buff will be never used. And on my opinion all of those abilities who are never used on all class need to be more viable to make some diversity on the gameplay and more helpuf for some situation. Atm this cry inst helpfull on a solo oriented or on a party oriented.


I have another proposal for this cry to be much loved on the -1 one :


2 - Upgrade the wound buff from the Warcry, and make this cry a party buff like 2 others War Cry
- Add to Cry buff proc "on being hit" .


Whit this cry buff playing on 2H gameplay can be more interesting switching Da brawler for steals at Da toughness when dangerous time to get this wound buff can save some ass to back house or to take down and rdps runing and controling well or some class doing overpowered damage.




Dont forget for those who playing on 2H defensive/offensif this KD abilitie is mandatory for our burst and constant damage rotation or SnB gameplay to focus one target to kill we need to put 14 points to take it ( when the Da greenest or da brawler buff are more viable on almost all situation ) and whit this underpowered wound buff on Da toughness cry wasting 14 points just for that is a bit annoying and we lose some others nice stuff .

PV : sorry for my english writing.

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Nefarian78
Posts: 328

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest cry

Post#8 » Sat May 19, 2018 8:31 pm

While requiring you to hit stuff to get a proc that is supposed to save your butt is bad, it's not the end of the world. Changing it to "on being hit" instead of "when you hit" does nothing to solve the problem.

The problem is not how you activate the buff, but the buff itself. No matter what (unless it's some absurd number) the wound buff, even if it gets buffed will NEVER save anyone and will never make a difference. It would only be good to MAYBE soak the next auto attack or 2 and then the wounds you received are already long gone.

a 2h Build doesn't gain anything from this, nor will a SnB build. It does not create more "interesting gameplay" because there would be no point in using 55 AP, a GCD and then hope for it to proc to soak the next 2 auto attacks hoping it somehow saves you, or someone else because it certainly won't.

Talking about defensive 2h builds is pointless. Defensive 2h BO is and has always been useless. You're better off using an Offensive SnB at that point, instead of losing damage AND defensive stats to gain...nothing.

Offensive 2h BO is GONE. moving Down ya Go killed the spec for good. If you feel that the points you invested in getting the KD are wasted, then don't take the KD and focus on Boss as your second path.

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Bignusty
Posts: 325

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest cry

Post#9 » Sat May 19, 2018 9:41 pm

Nefarian78 wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:31 pm
While requiring you to hit stuff to get a proc that is supposed to save your butt is bad, it's not the end of the world. Changing it to "on being hit" instead of "when you hit" does nothing to solve the problem.

The problem is not how you activate the buff, but the buff itself. No matter what (unless it's some absurd number) the wound buff, even if it gets buffed will NEVER save anyone and will never make a difference. It would only be good to MAYBE soak the next auto attack or 2 and then the wounds you received are already long gone.

a 2h Build doesn't gain anything from this, nor will a SnB build. It does not create more "interesting gameplay" because there would be no point in using 55 AP, a GCD and then hope for it to proc to soak the next 2 auto attacks hoping it somehow saves you, or someone else because it certainly won't.

Talking about defensive 2h builds is pointless. Defensive 2h BO is and has always been useless. You're better off using an Offensive SnB at that point, instead of losing damage AND defensive stats to gain...nothing.

Offensive 2h BO is GONE. moving Down ya Go killed the spec for good. If you feel that the points you invested in getting the KD are wasted, then don't take the KD and focus on Boss as your second path.
I dont porpose to change "on hit" to "being hit" but make the cry able to proc "when you hit" and to proc "when you are hit"

2H Defensiv BO isnt lot of pointless as you ask when you see people just not able to kill dalgrimmar premade and being killed 1 by one. And 2H BO can do decent damage on assit whit guard and heal support.

2H offensiv BO isnt gone when at rr70 you can take Down Ya go and make your dmg rotation ( DYG >> THC >> SYF) Da greenest cry is useless when you want to be a dmg dealer but you lose your strengh debuff buff from big swing but can be helpfull to proc wound buff .

And whit this option proc the wound buff on hit and being hit aoe can be more helpfull just see how many time the Da brawler cry proc im agree there is no CD on the proc like toughness one. So this option can be lot of more helpfull for solo oriented and party play oriented whit another source (being hit) we can proc more ofen the wound buff.

If maybe devs should be able to test it to see how helpfull it will be because whit words its always difficult to realize somethings .

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Nefarian78
Posts: 328

Re: [Black Orc] Da Toughest cry

Post#10 » Sat May 19, 2018 10:51 pm

Bignusty wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:41 pm
I dont porpose to change "on hit" to "being hit" but make the cry able to proc "when you hit" and to proc "when you are hit"

2H Defensiv BO isnt lot of pointless as you ask when you see people just not able to kill dalgrimmar premade and being killed 1 by one. And 2H BO can do decent damage on assit whit guard and heal support.

2H offensiv BO isnt gone when at rr70 you can take Down Ya go and make your dmg rotation ( DYG >> THC >> SYF) Da greenest cry is useless when you want to be a dmg dealer but you lose your strengh debuff buff from big swing but can be helpfull to proc wound buff .

And whit this option proc the wound buff on hit and being hit aoe can be more helpfull just see how many time the Da brawler cry proc im agree there is no CD on the proc like toughness one. So this option can be lot of more helpfull for solo oriented and party play oriented whit another source (being hit) we can proc more ofen the wound buff.

If maybe devs should be able to test it to see how helpfull it will be because whit words its always difficult to realize somethings .
It wasn't clear that you wanted it to both proc on hitting and being hit. It still doesn't do anything to solve the problems with Da Toughest. Making an incredibly weak buff easier to get doesn't make the buff stronger or worth using

Defensive 2h BOs are useless. Losing damage to slot defensive tactics and defensive gear while losing defense because you're using a 2h instead of SnB IS pointless. If you can prove that they are not useless, then please, do because anectodal evidence about someone's premade is worth nothing.

"2h offensive BO isn't gone when at rr70" Sorry but i laughed a little. You think that rr70 being a REQUIREMENT just to be able to use a barely viable build is okay? It's not, especially when said build isn't even worth using. To get both THC and DYG you're losing on so many things that it's not even funny.

Look at this build, for example: RoR.builders - Offensive 2h

Then take a look at this: RoR.builders - DYG+THC

To get DYG+THC you're losing on a Defensive-Offensive tactic (Guud at Big Choppin) or a purely offensive one (Gork Smash). You're losing pressure, utility and situational defense from Not in Da Face and group defenses from Rock 'Ard. Additionally, you're more likely to use the skills from the Boss tree and spending points there will improve them. Losing ALL of this just to get a 10s Chop Fasta KD in smallscale is simply not worth it.

Let's say that your proposal is implemented in the game. If i'm running my Offensive 2h build i'd NEVER want to use Toughest, since Rock 'Ard fulfills the same role but better and more reliably. It also means i can keep using Biggest and keep pumping out more damage with Loudmouth (Imo there's no point using an Offensive BO without Loudmouth, the damage gain is incredible)

Even if for some reason im using THC+DYG i'd still never use Toughest for the reasons mentioned in the above posts.

You want to fix Toughest? Make it a refresheable parry buff. That way i can trade stat steal (an important trade) for personal defense, while also being able to use Loudmouth with it without losing damage.

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