[Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury

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Smellybelly
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#41 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:38 pm

Mm very well, i have tried it and however fun it is (its kinda cool tbh, and its much more fun then just reapplying the same 2-3 dots over and over) this is what i feel about it in its current form:
1: For utility/6 man group play you pick crit/parry buff/knockdown and Earthshatter for aoe slow.
2: For warband you go deftard, snb
3: For solo play you go knockdown, grumble and mutter, Earthshatter, punishing knock/magic absorb shield and possibly AF for crit bonus.
4: For **** and giggles you may go Grudgeborn Fury if you farm pugs as a premade and you dont fear running into a "real" premade.
5: It may be ok to switch earthshatter for GBF IF you have a knight who can constantly apply aoe snares, but its still very...unsafe.

Just doesnt feel like it fills enough utility or dps in its current form to be viable for replacing any of the other skills.

Some suggestions:
1: Tie the baselevel of "Watch and Learn" into channel activation of GBF, thus granting 75 WS bonus to you and your oathfriend and since Watch and learn grants AP, GBF also acts like a AP generator for you oathfriend (may need to be nerfed how much AP it grants though.) I.e remove Watch and Learn as a skill if this happens, may have bad implications for other builds though.

2: Just increase base dmg of GBF enough to make it worth losing Earthshatter for

3: Switch place with Ancestors Fury, make AF strenght bonus stack with potions and auras to make up for the 13p cost OR increase the crit bonus on AF, keep GBF as is since its a lower tier talent.

Its just suggestions though so dont get the torches just yet

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Osred
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#42 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:40 pm

I think switching it with Ancestors Fury (while buffing AF) is a good shout. Also remove its greatweapon requirement. At the moment it doesn't provide much damage for its investment (yes I have tested it) being so high and weapon restricted. The only other skill with such restrictions is Ether Dance and we all know thats worth the investment, justifying its restrictions.

Perhaps add an armour ignore component to the channel, similar to Rune Etched Axe, which increases penetration dependant on Grudge Level.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#43 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:20 pm

Osred wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:40 pm
I think switching it with Ancestors Fury (while buffing AF) is a good shout. Also remove its greatweapon requirement. At the moment it doesn't provide much damage for its investment (yes I have tested it) being so high and weapon restricted. The only other skill with such restrictions is Ether Dance and we all know thats worth the investment, justifying its restrictions.

Perhaps add an armour ignore component to the channel, similar to Rune Etched Axe, which increases penetration dependant on Grudge Level.
The last part would be a drastic DPS increase, and, while I'm not against it, would possibly warrant reshuffling other abilities around if the damage increase were significant (RR60+ IB would be incredibly powerful - with a good mix of high DPS and utility via crit/aoe snare/HD)
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Eathisword
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#44 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:16 pm

Smellybelly wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:38 pm
...
3: Switch place with Ancestors Fury, make AF strenght bonus stack with potions and auras to make up for the 13p cost OR increase the crit bonus on AF, keep GBF as is since its a lower tier talent.

Its just suggestions though so dont get the torches just yet
I kinda like that one. AF is a 2 person 10% crit buff (works for every types of crits, heal, melee, magic) and is very low in tree. Having it on par with Crimson Death would make sense. Maybe to offset that it affects only 2 ally, it could be made 15%. Dunno.

Alternatively, the crit could remain 10%, but the somewhat useless strength component of it could be changed to another stat, like initiative, resist or even wounds, as there are fewer of those type of buffs (I think... :lol: )

Anyhow, having GBF downgraded at 5 points would create a more interesting gameplay for IB for sure.
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DokB
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#45 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:23 pm

Not sure how I feel about having an armour ignore on a channel like GBF if it did get swapped with AF. You’ve got a class that can already has access to a decent armour debuff, on top of Dom/Watch and Learn which leaves you at 550 WS roughly (I think that’s about 30-40% armour pen). Throw in demo strike for even more hurt which means dropping Rock Clutch however.

It just seems that it would give IB access to an awful amount of DPS at low point cost, hell he will even be shredding through most tanks as well once his buffs/debuffs are all up and providing that the other tank hasn’t gone full deftard armour talis. SM already does this by the way and while any change to the IB is unlikely to put them on SM-levels of damage, it’s a massive buff for a tank class that already has decent DPS weighed against the utility it brings to a group with outgoing HD/Oathbound/Earthshatter/Cave-In.

What values were you guys thinking to begin with?
5% armour at 25 Grudge
10% armour at 50 Grudge and so on etc. etc?
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Ramasee
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#46 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:29 pm

Gave up trying to find a BG to help me find their values, and the only person in our guild who has one at higher levels is on vacation.

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Eathisword
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#47 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:15 am

Torquemadra wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:35 pm
Spoiler:
Eathisword wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:16 pm
Smellybelly wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:38 pm
...
3: Switch place with Ancestors Fury, make AF strenght bonus stack with potions and auras to make up for the 13p cost OR increase the crit bonus on AF, keep GBF as is since its a lower tier talent.

Its just suggestions though so dont get the torches just yet
I kinda like that one. AF is a 2 person 10% crit buff (works for every types of crits, heal, melee, magic) and is very low in tree. Having it on par with Crimson Death would make sense. Maybe to offset that it affects only 2 ally, it could be made 15%. Dunno.

Alternatively, the crit could remain 10%, but the somewhat useless strength component of it could be changed to another stat, like initiative, resist or even wounds, as there are fewer of those type of buffs (I think... :lol: )

Anyhow, having GBF downgraded at 5 points would create a more interesting gameplay for IB for sure.
Or other, more attractive options in other trees could be nerfed or raised up trees, this blanket buff/turn to low hanging fruit/hide weaker/less attractive stuff higher in trees approach does little but raise one eyebrow......
Hum... I never hid the fact that I was biased in my love of IB. That said, flipping AF for GBF would be a pretty clear nerf to all of the IB meta spec. Tri-spec 6 man IB would have to chose between Crit buff, parry buff and AoE snare, having all 3 like we can now wouldn't be possible anymore. SnB would likely lose all incentive to spec Vengeance altogether. Solo spec would lose 10% crit as GnM is a must and going 13 points in vengeance is not an option for them.

In all 3 cases, GBF would come no where close to be more powerful than a full uptime 10% crit increase for you and 1 ally.

10% crit for a true dps or healer friend is more valuable than an extra 200-400 damage hammer swing over the standard rotation we have now. Heck, 10% crit on GnM is likely close to that in healing extra for the solo build.

So, if it is a nerf, why want it ? Because it would make the class more fun. The rotations would change. Also, it would be a good fight starter when slotted with Rising Anger, as it generates Grudge fast (which is one of the boring part of IB in the first 3-5s of fights where we cannot do anything useful).

Ya know, fun is still a driving factor in video games... Being Fotm because a balance change favored your class isn't something everyone hopes for. I'd take some nerfs, if it made the class more fun to play for the relatively small amount of time I am drawn to play now anyway. Objectively, I believe this swap proposition to be a nerf in term of absolute power. But I also believe it would make 2H IB more interesting to play. But what do I know.

Edit : more simply put, it would change the current ways. With the swap, some people would go for the extra crit and spec full vengeance. Some wouldn't, liking Earthshatter or parry more. And in that mix some people would grab GbF, hence creating diversity. Right now, no one seriously specs GbF. No one spec full vengeance. As all the alternatives are much better or very close even for loldps max damage build.
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Smellybelly
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#48 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:34 am

Torquemadra wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:35 pm
Eathisword wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:16 pm
Smellybelly wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:38 pm
...
3: Switch place with Ancestors Fury, make AF strenght bonus stack with potions and auras to make up for the 13p cost OR increase the crit bonus on AF, keep GBF as is since its a lower tier talent.

Its just suggestions though so dont get the torches just yet
I kinda like that one. AF is a 2 person 10% crit buff (works for every types of crits, heal, melee, magic) and is very low in tree. Having it on par with Crimson Death would make sense. Maybe to offset that it affects only 2 ally, it could be made 15%. Dunno.

Alternatively, the crit could remain 10%, but the somewhat useless strength component of it could be changed to another stat, like initiative, resist or even wounds, as there are fewer of those type of buffs (I think... :lol: )

Anyhow, having GBF downgraded at 5 points would create a more interesting gameplay for IB for sure.
Or other, more attractive options in other trees could be nerfed or raised up trees, this blanket buff/turn to low hanging fruit/hide weaker/less attractive stuff higher in trees approach does little but raise one eyebrow......
Hi Torq! Do you have any alternative ideas that you are willing to share? In regards to switching around the other trees that is.
I get what your saying, people are more or less always biased when they voice their concerns and as lead developer/or just the guy in charge you have to take all such things into account. We are all very happy that the balance discussions are open and i do not presume to take anything for granted.

I sit here and look at the career builder though and it doesnt feel unreasonable to switch the crit buff with GBF. I feel GBF would fill a otherwise empty slot in the rotation of any 2h spec and it would better reflect how BG are forced to make choices in regards to parry focus or crit focus etc, you cant get everything in one spec.
As it stands atm a IB do get everything (Crit buff, Parry buff, Knockdown, AoE slow in a 6 man group) - ( http://www.ror.builders/career/ironbrea ... mm=&mt=&t= ) wich basically mean that you get "everything".
I guess it would be reasonably to switch brotherhood tree around if everyone goes for eartshatter (its a lovely skill) but i find myself asking "change it with what, or even why?" Switch Grumble and Mutter for earthshatter so you turn it away from premade groups? Wouldnt they just go for http://www.ror.builders/career/ironbrea ... mt=3780&t= instead then? Im just brainstormning here and i know we as a playerbase are not entitled to anything, just trying to discuss the skill trees

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AxelF
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#49 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:09 am

Spoiler:
Torquemadra wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:35 pm
Eathisword wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:16 pm
Smellybelly wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:38 pm
...
3: Switch place with Ancestors Fury, make AF strenght bonus stack with potions and auras to make up for the 13p cost OR increase the crit bonus on AF, keep GBF as is since its a lower tier talent.

Its just suggestions though so dont get the torches just yet
I kinda like that one. AF is a 2 person 10% crit buff (works for every types of crits, heal, melee, magic) and is very low in tree. Having it on par with Crimson Death would make sense. Maybe to offset that it affects only 2 ally, it could be made 15%. Dunno.

Alternatively, the crit could remain 10%, but the somewhat useless strength component of it could be changed to another stat, like initiative, resist or even wounds, as there are fewer of those type of buffs (I think... :lol: )

Anyhow, having GBF downgraded at 5 points would create a more interesting gameplay for IB for sure.
Or other, more attractive options in other trees could be nerfed or raised up trees, this blanket buff/turn to low hanging fruit/hide weaker/less attractive stuff higher in trees approach does little but raise one eyebrow......
OK let's look this objectively for a second from a balance perspective without any of the trademark snark and attitude.

IB has access to 10% crit buff for you and OF at 5 points. Requires use of the IB mechanic. Also grants a strength buff to IB and OF.

KoBS has a passive aura that grants a strength buff to entire group, the value of which exceeds the value of the 'single target' IB str buff. Requires absolutely no effort, ability activation, use of mechanic on KoBS part. The same aura also applies a str debuff to all enemies in range.

KoBS then have a 7 point tactic that means the same aura also grants 10% crit to everyone in 30 feet, both in and out of group.

So with zero points spent they grant entire group a str buff of higher value than the IB's ST buff, as well as debuffing all enemies. This buff requires no mechanic/ability use and has no limited duration.

With just two points more spent than the IB they grant everyone near them (in and out of party) a 10% crit buff. Permanently, with no ability or mechanic restrictions. The IB on the other hand grants himself and OF a 10% crit buff lasting just 10 seconds, requires spending mechanic points and takes up a GCD.

And that's just one of three auras the KoBS can run. You can repeat the entire discussion above for the IB's single target, limited duration toughness buff. Knight brings not only a party wide buff that is on permanently and in the 'standard' spec is usually of greater value than the IB one, but also debuffs the toughness of all enemies.

Absolutely nothing there you can see as a balance lead that's worthy of comment other than snark? 'Don't think I can't see you trying to improve IB's...' Of course balance suggestions are aimed at improving the effectiveness/viability of IBs as they and SM are so far behind KoBS that it's not even funny. In the interests of balance either the KoBS needs a massive nerd or the other two tanks need boosting to bring them into line. And yes I have and play both a KoBS and an IB.

orillah
Posts: 94

Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#50 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:11 am

Spoiler:
Pls stop all this knight nonsense
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