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[Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury

Proposals after the two week discussion period will be moved to this sub-forum for internal review.
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GodlessCrom
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[Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury

Post#1 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:29 pm

Issue:

Grudgeborn Fury and Oathstone both possess similar issues: they are 13 point speccable abilities, effectively the capstones of their trees as m4s are almost never taken, and yet they are both relatively lackluster, and typically outshone, in both group and solo play, by choices in Brotherhood tree.

Grudgeborn Fury is a pure damage ability, but hits rather softly despite being a 13 point channeled ability. Compared to its counterparts such as Ether Dance, T'ree Hit Combo, and now Relentless (with appropriate tactic, granted), it simply does not do enough damage to justify losing out on AAs (which are now almost always at 50% haste due to Stubborn as Stone buff, ty Torque) and other abilities during the cast time. As Penril tested in an earlier thread (the armor debuff one, if I am not mistaken? On phone, will look up later), Grudgeborn Fury was the 2nd lowest damage tank channel in the game, bettered (worsened?) only by Chosen's Relentless, which has subsequently received a (much needed) buff.

Moreover, taking this ability typically means one misses out on near-essential utility abilities such as Oathbound in Stone, or the various abilities in Brotherhood. Finally, the high base damage of Earthshatter in Brotherhood means that in a 2h build, getting Earthshatter almost always provides more on-demand burst, not to mention an aoe snare, meaning Grudgeborn Fury simply cannot compete in either damage or utility.
Spoiler:
Oathstone, strictly speaking, is less problematic. It provides a decent defensive cooldown, especially if timed against a Sorceror's timestamp combo or some sort of similar small window-of-opportunity timestamp based high damage combo. The damage it provides is quite high, but totally random. It was recently bugfixed to no longer hit against self when proced from Guard damage, but it is still an inefficient and unreliable method of applying damage, which when combined with its position as a 13 point talent with a 30 second cooldown, makes it undesirable when juxtaposed against the utilIty gained in Brotherhood tree.
Solutions:

1. Grudgeborn Fury -

A: Simply increase the base damage. The ability should, ideally, deal more damage than one would otherwise do while auto-attacking/using other damage abilities. The increased critical chance due to Grudge is a fine method of scaling the damage as well, but currently the base damage is simply too low, meaning the crits are not particularly intimidating.

Edit: Since replacing the crit modifier isn't a thing, I support simply raising the base damage. As Penril tested all the tank channels, he knows GBF has astonishingly low damage for a 13 point dps ability and I would assert that due to such low damage, it is completely overshadowed by other IB abilities in conjunction with auto attacks.

If this proposal gets moved to discussion, I would ask some people with better geared IBs to test how hard GBF hits now, and how hard their normal dps rotations hit in comparison. We can organize that later, and obviously I can contribute as well. I firmly believe this discussion would benefit from hard data over feels, however (especially since I am reasonably certain it would prove my point).
Spoiler:
B: Replace the crit chance modifier on Grudge with a different effect. Ironbreakers are already quite well suited when it comes to boosting their crit chance, with Ancestors Fury and Sweet Revenge. So perhaps something like a scaling armor ignore feature, like that possessed by Rune-etched Axe.

25 Grudge: 25% of opponents armor ignored
50 Grudge: 35% of opponents armor ignored

and so on. The numbers are arbitrary, obviously.
2: Oathstone

Edit: I have no further suggestions for this skill. If the original idea is possible, I support that, though with a potential damage nerf, as Oathstone hits around 800 per tick at r40 and max grudges, and making that a more reliable form of damage would be pretty harsh.
Spoiler:
My proposal for this is rather modest. Make it so the damage procced off block hits your offensive target if they are within melee range. Otherwise it does no damage at all. The ability is still reliant on you receiving damage, which is typically not an issue when guarding another player, but it is a more reliable form of burst damage. It adds to the skill based nature of Ironbreaker, as you must decide whether to use it as a defensive or offensive cooldown, and it is still reliant on actually receiving damage, and therefore would not necessarily be "free" damage in all circumstances (as there are certainly moments when you wish to kill something but receive no damage yourself).
Last edited by GodlessCrom on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Penril
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury

Post#2 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:59 pm

I am not sure your Oathstone proposal can be done. Usually, we work with skills that already exist in the game and I can't think of anything that works that way. Closest I can think of is Loudmouth, which worked with bellow procs (not block) and was ranged (not melee). Same thing with armor ignore based on Grudges for GF; i am not sure that's possible atm.

Feel free to edit this proposal with different suggestions; i will give you a week (unless a dev comes and tells us your proposal is possible).

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peterthepan3
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury

Post#3 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:57 am

Open for discussion. Will be locked in TWO WEEKS from now (2nd July).

I am opening this discussion for the first part of your proposal, i.e. that which pertains to increasing GBF's base damage. Second proposal would probably warrant CC, so let's put it aside for now.

It's a 13 pter, hardly anyone specs it, you do more damage via AA/DoTs/ES etc; it should pack a punch.
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Eathisword
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#4 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:14 pm

I’ll test this tonight and provide data for 2 standard rotation. Will edit this post with SS and timestamp of damage.
Farfadet, RR72 shaman
Volgograd, RR80 IB
Video thread here.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#5 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:58 pm

Eathisword wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:14 pm I’ll test this tonight and provide data for 2 standard rotation. Will edit this post with SS and timestamp of damage.
Appreciated.
Spoiler:
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Eathisword
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:29 am

Ok, did some test. Not perfect, but it gives an idea.
I took a level 40 mob as test dummy. All test on the same level 40 mob.
All tests, I had same gear, same renown spec, same weapon and were conducted at 100 grudges for max armor debuff on Stone Breaker, max damage on Heavy Blow and Earthshatter and max crit bonus on GBF.
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I did the tests rotation multiple times each. These sample timestamp are merely the closest to the averages for each rotation.

First one, I had Vengeance/brotherhood spec. So my vengeance was 9 points to Cave-in and grabbing Ancestror's fury. Then 13 points in brotherhood, grabbing Earthshatter.
6s rotation went : Stone Breaker, Binding Grudges, Heavy Blow, Earthshatter.
Total damage including AA was 3188, with a crit on Earthshatter.

2nd and 3rd ones, I have 13 points in vengeance, grabbing Grudge-Born-Fury, Great Weapon Mastery and Ancestror's fury. 0 points in anything else.
6s rotation went : Stone Breaker, Binding grudges, Grudge-Born-Fury.
Rotation without Greatweapon Mastery did 3025 with 2 crit on GBF. (was 2770 without adding crits)
Rotation with Greatweapon Mastery did 3252 with also 2 crit on GBF (which is roughly 10% more than the other one, so it's seems fair game).

Conclusion for me : I would never run GBF as it is. Its channel that cost a ton, does just about the same damage with GWM tactic using a slot, than a spec without it AND without using the tactic. Factor in that the armor debuff was also stronger... and Its just a sad sad sad ability.
EDIT IMPORTANT : I am NOT unbiased in this. So my conclusions and opinions count for not much honestly. I love the class too much to be impartial. But I did do my best to present unbiased data for people to think over.
Last edited by Eathisword on Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Farfadet, RR72 shaman
Volgograd, RR80 IB
Video thread here.

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DokB
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#7 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:37 am

I’m all for buffing its base damage for a number of reasons.
- The Crit bonus doesn’t stack with your other buffs such as AF. Since stacking rules are looked at on a case by case basis, I believe GBF should stack with your other abilities due to it being a 13 point ability (for instance Crimson Death stacks with both Deeply Impaled/Crippling Strikes)
- With poor base damage, the crits you might receive from GBF are still subpar.
- It does barely less damage on its own than KotBS MF which is a 9 point ability and needs less tactics/buff management to set itself up. Source: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23263
- Since it’s a 13pt ability, you need to sacrifice skills/builds to take it, therefore it should be rewarding to use which it currently isn’t
- With what you sacrifice to take GBF, you still get more damage out of your regular damage rotation in standard spec (9 Vengeance/13 Brotherhood) and you can provide more utility to your group with Earthshatter/Runic Shield/Punishing Knock) Source: Volgogod

I would be very interested to hear why people might think it shouldn’t be buffed to be honest.
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Doinks - Ironbreaker
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orillah
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#8 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:54 am

I would love to see some adjustment for GBF.
I think making it inheretent crit increase stack with AF would be good at least. or change it to armor ignore for the same manner as R-EA, but maybe at 50% effectivness.

P.S. Meanwhile would love Murmidia Fury to get some attention too.

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Smellybelly
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#9 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:19 am

I am very happy you are taking a look at this.
I have a rr65 IB and GBF was something i tried for about 2 days in total. It was horrible, even with the crit bonus it was still a terrible ability, a self AP drain more then anything else.

It's a bit wierd that the crit bonus from AF doesnt stack with GBF at 100 grudges, makes me wonder what else is overlooked (sw crit bonus, knight crit aura etc).

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kmark101
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Re: [Ironbreaker] Oathstone and Grudgeborn Fury [Close Date 2nd July]

Post#10 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:09 am

It's an awful ability in it's current form. I think an armor penetrating component would make more justice as this is the largest problem of the IB anyway: everyone and their grandmother have 60% mitigation on my hits. Would be nice to have an ability that actually hits hard, while ignoring some % armor (so casters would be less effected, but stinky orks). I think the cirt% change would just cause endless problems with stacking/notstacking/etc..
Gryyw - Ironbreaker

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